Thursday, May 16, 2013

A theological question: Does God help those who help themselves?

I paused a question to my friends on this topic
 
How true is this common saying, "God help those who help themselves"

 
I will tell you that this was probably the most debated subject, I ever posted.

  • Melusi Mkhwanazi Not true at all
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    Dauda Tunkara I think it's open for interpretation. Literally I think it's not true because God help people during times when they think not of him. But if you think about in another light God's favor comes more to people that are wanting and asking and putting themselves in positions to receive it. For eg you can't be in your house n expect God to get you a job.
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    Dumani Ndlovu Its not true but that does not mean we should not work and expect God to provide. We have to be industrious and work very had to suceed in life.
  • Lobengula Ikasi Elihle If you help yourself through prayer God will certainly help you.
  • Nkosilathi Ndiweni Hm i thnk its true he hels those who help thmselves. Lion atack u fight 'n pray sam tme he wil gve u powa not u knel down 'n pray u ar gne. U are sick u dnt tke medication u expect miracles u ar gne. Be fair 2 God pple not tempt hm plz.
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  • Mnqobi B Sibanda It is a man's saying and not inspired by The HOLY SPIRIT coz its not found in The BIBLE.

  • Brighton Ncube No one will ever help themselves. Whenever people think they are helping themselves its actually God enabling them. As human beings we tend to think that we are in control and our ego overrides us to the extent that we think we are the be all and the end all. When something good happens we claim we were lucky instead if claiming a blessing sometimes we claim it was a coincident. Did you know that a coincidence is a miracle that God performs but he does not claim responsibility. I can go on and in but in short we are too frail and weak to be of any use to ourselves. Its only God in charge on earth.
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    Nomathemba Moyo May be we need to understand the context and why abadala were saying that. It is not in the bible for sure
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    Zwelibanzi Nkomo The Bible teaches the opposite. Jer 17:5 (NIV) This is what the LORD says: "Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the LORD."
    God helps the helpless! Isaiah 25:4 declares, "For You have been a defense for the helpless, a defense for the needy in his distress, a refuge from the storm, a shade from the heat..." Romans 5:6 tells us, "For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly."
    This saying is usually attributed to Ben Franklin, quoted in Poor Richard's Almanac in 1757. In actuality, it originated from Algernon Sydney in 1698 in an article titled Discourses Concerning Government.
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    Victor Mkhumbulo Ncube Biblical wrong,might be logicaly fitting in certain scenarios and one's stand point.usualy pple who like this statement would be wanting to reject God's ways and guidance.
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    Mandla Mkwananzi So would you reject such advise bcoz its not biblical?
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    Patrick Siziba as long as is in line with Gods ways take it
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    Mandla Mkwananzi Some of you are walking bibles, l tell you.
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    Zwelibanzi Nkomo Spare the rod, spoil the child
    Here is another famous saying, "Spare the rod, spoil the child," cannot be found anywhere in the Bible. The saying, however, should not be considered invalid , there are verses that have a similar idea

  • Proverbs 13:24
    He who withholds his rod hates his son,
    But he who loves him disciplines him diligently.

    Proverbs 22:15
    Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child;
    The rod of discipline will remove it far from him.

    Proverbs 23:13-14
    Do not hold back discipline from the child,
    Although you strike him with the rod, he will not die.
    You shall strike him with the rod
    And rescue his soul from Sheol.

    Proverbs 29:15
    The rod and reproof give wisdom,
    But a child who gets his own way brings shame to his mother.
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    BaFengu Majoni Nice topic mkhaya.
    @Zwelibanzi Nkomo, I like the way you look at the topic, i would have thought as well looking more at the background of the whole phrase, and for the person to say it what would have happened, i equally agree with most of you that this is not found in the christian bible, which in this case i will assume most of the contributors in to this topic so far are, i was also tempted to say the same, however lets not end there, while i was also perplexed with my mouth ajar, i have said these words in the past, though never knew of it origins, I took time however to further look into this how did it come to be said so, to dig a little bit deeper, and see if we can come out with something meaningful out of this,
    tell you my fellow country man, i came across this:

    Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 13 Surah Raad verse 11: Verily never will Allah change the condition of a people until they change it themselves.
    So when we closely look at this above verse of course from a different religion from ours, something like that do exist, Lets not forget though as we look at this, lets remind our selves the world we are living in, multicultural religion which is made up of different beliefs


  • BaFengu Majoni @zwelibanzi my fellow brother in christ, greetings to you,
    when we quote these verse with the regard to the use of the rod as a disciplinary measure, what are we saying here, i will take it this is the way our elderly, and schools long time are ago must have interpreted it, as pick up the stick, umkharabhe kakhulu, yikho ukuthi aze afunde, noma ngiyabe ngilamastresses ami, ngizawakhuphela kubo abantwana esikolo, kumbe ngekhaya noma kuye unkosikazi etc.
    I have got a feeling that this verse did not exactly mean that, we people decided it that way, because when we look at it closely disciplining someone is not about picking the rod and inflict some pain on another individual 's flesh, but we can equally discipline someone, which can be equally effective but without lifting up a rod to someone.
    For are main examples which we main list, but i wouldn't like to be long.

  • Zwelibanzi Nkomo BaFengu Majonioung children often do foolish and dangerous things because they don't understand the consequences. Wisdom and common sense are not just transferable through observing that is by being a good example only. A child learns wisdom consciously; the rod stands for all foams of discipline or training. Parents must discipline children to make them learn the difference between right and wrong. The greatest responsibility God gives parents is to nature and to guide children. Lack of discipline put the love of parents in question because it shows lack of concern for the character development of children. While all this is done it is vital to remember that your efforts only cannot make your child wises but can encourage them to seek God’s wisdom above everything else. God also corrects us prov.3v11&12
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    Zwelibanzi Nkomo @BaFengu Majoni Akesikhangele ngesintu mntakababa ngoba lona elithi ROD liyethusa.

    Izaga13v 24 Lowo ongasebenzisi uswazi
    uyayizonda indodana yakhe,
    kodwa lowo oyithandayo
    unqinekela ukuyiqondisa.

    Izaga 22 v 15 Ubuthutha bubotshelwe
    enhliziyweni yomntwana,
    kodwa uswazi lokuqondisa
    luzabuxotshela khatshana.

    Izaga23v13&14 Ungayekeli ukumlaya
    umntwana;
    ukumtshaya ngoswazi
    akuyikumbulala.
    Mjezise ngoswazi ukuze
    uphephise umphefumulo wakhe
    ekufeni.

  • BaFengu Majoni Ayi baba ithi ngiphefumule kancane mani, njalo ngizathanda sicace phela lapha,
    Mina nawe siyavumelana entweni ezinengi kulokhu esikhuluma ngakho ikakhulu ekutheni sikhona kangaka isidingo sokuthi umntwana kumele alaywe akwenzela ukuthi akhule elembeko, njalo ngizathanda ukubana sivumelane futhi ukuthi kanti isaga sona sivele siyini, ngani ngoba nxa sithi siyakhangelisisa lapha thina esikhuluma ngakho yisaga, okunjengokuthi mina nxa ngithi imbuzi igudla iguma, angitsho mina ngezinye indlela ukuthi mina imbuzi ibonakale inqwetha emagumeni hayi ngitsho ukuthi ngezinye indlela,uyabona undoda lo uyazekelisa enkulumeni yakhe, akathandi ukuthi ayithi bhadla indaba, hee uyabona into enjanga leyo.
    Caca uswazi lapha wena olutshiwoyo lapha yiloluyana esiluphundla esihlahleni, besesibuya sikarabhe ngalo abantwana, inoma lapha thina sithi: umntwana imbeko uyayidinga, we have identified a behaviour which needs to corrected, so in correcting that behaviour are you literally saying thatha uswazi ukarabhe, pick up the stick/rod and physical hit the child with it or are we saying uswazi in this case does not necessarily mean physical contact with the stick or anything along those lines, but here usawzi represent the process of disciplining the individual in question, with or without inflicting physical pain on the flesh. Because some of us disciplining the children we are even the worst, children in question are even better than us in terms of behaviour in the society.
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    Zwelibanzi Nkomo uswazi lona oluzwisa ubuhlungu enyameni kanye lokuyala kokubili kuhamba kubambene kunjengamanzi lobumazi kuyelapha. Kodwa ngiyavumelana lawe ukuthi esikhathini esiphila kuso abadala bedlula labantwana ekuhambeni mazombezombe kodwa nxa i order yobhalo ilandelwe kuhle iyasebenza .
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    Mandla Mkwananzi This is topic was no doubt debated. Its always hard to judge the extent of words. The major problem with the above topic is that, when you say God helps those who helps themselves, most people somehow misinterpret it to mean that you are "trying to help God" In what ever capacity you define or interpret "God" it is not logic or at least feasible to help God. Make no mistake about that, unless your/our view of "God is man made" I must also be clear that I appreciate the theological and scriptural based comments and arguments.
    They save as basis of our Christian beliefs and are fundamental since "we cannot" interpret God without or apart from scriptures. I personal avoid much too scriptures. In the same sentence, I must also mention that, the creation itself testifies about the existence and the magnitude works of God. Coming back to my point, I must say that we as humans must apply what we can with our physical power and might.                                                                                                              
    This is not to despise prayer and faith, by no means. In the beginning we see God entrusting Adam with the garden of Eden. Well before the fall and we are living after the fall, but thank God for Christ Jesus, who has redeemed us from the curse. Read Apostle Paul's letters at the beginnings. (Not preaching here obviously. Some Sunday school teacher and some even some preachers could be hammering me this Sunday somewhere for preaching face book heresy) What I get from this saying is that one must put effort towards a desired goal. Its not a scripture saying, but a human one which acknowledges that "God is eager to make you successful you are putting an effort.
    The Bible talks many time about "a sower" Our Lord Jesus give a parable about a sower. Point is we are suppose to saw to reap. Ahab in the old testament tried to reap where he did not sow. We all know happened. Last month I posted something about leapers who dared to died trying, my brother Melusi Mkhwananzi like that post. Thank you all for Contributions Zwe Nkomo and Bafengu Majoni, my former Sizane mates, I am proud of you. Both of you should be my advisors when I save as a Sobhuku one day.
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    Jennifer Frances Armstrong ape helps those who help themselves
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    Zwelibanzi Nkomo Hmmmmmmmmm ape? in what sense is it used here

  • Zi Max Gumbo A simply question and we all run to the bible.. it doesn't mean all sentences that have God or Jesus in them should only be from the bible. Abangasi ma Christians sibaxotsha kalula. We kind of think uJesus uzofikela eChurch kuphela.

  • Zi Max Gumbo Mina I think the saying is true. it means get up and work ...you reap what you sow... do not let life happen to you, you should happen to life

  • Mandla Mkwananzi J F Armstrong is an atheist, I believe.

  • Joseph Qobo Mayisa it is not taken from the bible but has an element of truth depending on how you interpret it. Most miracles in the bible are preceded by people acting on faith or going to the Lord for help so perhaps this is a way of saying faith without works is dead



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